Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Foiling tack

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Created by dachopper 3 months ago, 26 Aug 2018
dachopper
WA, 1361 posts
26 Aug 2018 4:32PM
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Im not an ambi-turner
After what seemed like 100 tacks, I can tack upwind...... going right only

snalberski
WA, 590 posts
26 Aug 2018 5:12PM
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dachopper said..
Im not an ambi-turner
After what seemed like 100 tracks, I can tack upwind...... going right only


After what seems like 1000 I've only made a handfull properly without a board touchdown but can usually get a pretty untidy version in both directions

dachopper
WA, 1361 posts
26 Aug 2018 6:42PM
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snalberski said..

dachopper said..
Im not an ambi-turner
After what seemed like 100 tracks, I can tack upwind...... going right only



After what seems like 1000 I've only made a handfull properly without a board touchdown but can usually get a pretty untidy version in both directions


So.... Foiling gybe is supposed to be easier, but my tacks are pretty slow, so I found them easier to learn due slow impacts... everyone says go into gybe with speed, surely they are harder.

snalberski
WA, 590 posts
26 Aug 2018 8:43PM
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dachopper said..

snalberski said..


dachopper said..
Im not an ambi-turner
After what seemed like 100 tracks, I can tack upwind...... going right only




After what seems like 1000 I've only made a handfull properly without a board touchdown but can usually get a pretty untidy version in both directions



So.... Foiling gybe is supposed to be easier, but my tacks are pretty slow, so I found them easier to learn due slow impacts... everyone says go into gybe with speed, surely they are harder.


I think with both gybes and tacks going into it with speed is important, especially if you want a clean action. Heading pretty much directly upwind and minimising board angle change when initiating an upwind tack helps lots.

ActionSportsWA
WA, 605 posts
28 Aug 2018 10:42AM
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Hi Guys,

I find the tack is more complicated and more can go wrong, but the crash when it doesn't go well leaves you in the water on the new tack ready to restart. The speed is usually mostly washed off in the tack which means the consequences are minimized. I was told it takes about 1000 tacks to start really nailing them. I did a day in Mauritius where I did little but tack and did more than 200 tacks in that day. It helped dramatically. Several hundred tacks later, I am tacking kinda ok. In clean wind, fairly consistently but still not perfect

Gybing is done at speed, you have less stability and when you fall it is often along side of the foil or on the foil, or if you go over the front, you can be run over by your own foil. The actual pull from the kite is less in the gybe as you move with the wind. On freeride foils and inflatable kites the gybe is much easier. Gybe to toeside on the new tack and change when on the new tack. Fast foils are a bit more complicated ...

We will have Jean De Falbaire from Mauritius with us this summer and he is keen to do some foil clinics. Jean is in the top 10 on the HFPT.

DM

snalberski
WA, 590 posts
28 Aug 2018 11:44AM
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ActionSportsWA said..
Hi Guys,

I find the tack is more complicated and more can go wrong, but the crash when it doesn't go well leaves you in the water on the new tack ready to restart. The speed is usually mostly washed off in the tack which means the consequences are minimized. I was told it takes about 1000 tacks to start really nailing them. I did a day in Mauritius where I did little but tack and did more than 200 tacks in that day. It helped dramatically. Several hundred tacks later, I am tacking kinda ok. In clean wind, fairly consistently but still not perfect

Gybing is done at speed, you have less stability and when you fall it is often along side of the foil or on the foil, or if you go over the front, you can be run over by your own foil. The actual pull from the kite is less in the gybe as you move with the wind. On freeride foils and inflatable kites the gybe is much easier. Gybe to toeside on the new tack and change when on the new tack. Fast foils are a bit more complicated ...

We will have Jean De Falbaire from Mauritius with us this summer and he is keen to do some foil clinics. Jean is in the top 10 on the HFPT.

DM


Some good points here. It seems most new foilers try for downwind gybes rather than upwind tacks. Altough I didn't realise it when learning a failed gybe can often hurt alot more than a failed tack. This is because with a gybe the board is in a position that can mean you get dragged over it if you come off. With a tack the board mostly ends up upwind of you if you fail.
Last season I started attempting a few gybes to mix it up from exclusively doing tacks. I quickly realised why some of my fellow foilers were complaining of smashed shins whilst I was mostly unaffected.

dachopper
WA, 1361 posts
29 Aug 2018 1:23AM
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I think I discovered the secret of the tack today. I was previously trying to drive the board around upwind and swap feet and lean which was resulting mostly in falling off the back , or over leaning on the new tack. Then I started waiting to tack the board until the point where the kite just started pulling the wrong way. I found my foot actually pulled the board up and i was accelerating on the new tack already, giving better controlled of the board position somehow better than driving the board with lean.

:) now for the Foiling gybe!!!

CJ2478
NSW, 280 posts
29 Aug 2018 8:55AM
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when people are referring to gybes are you switching feet? Unless to relieve leg burn or if I really need to crank upwind I just ride natural only.

same with tacks, I am yet to try but am psyching myself up for basically a 180 degree upwind carving turn then crank kite in opposite direction. I am riding a surf foil, maybe things are different on the high speed foils though.

snalberski
WA, 590 posts
29 Aug 2018 11:25AM
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dachopper said..
I think I discovered the secret of the tack today. I was previously trying to drive the board around upwind and swap feet and lean which was resulting mostly in falling off the back , or over leaning on the new tack. Then I started waiting to tack the board until the point where the kite just started pulling the wrong way. I found my foot actually pulled the board up and i was accelerating on the new tack already, giving better controlled of the board position somehow better than driving the board with lean.

:) now for the Foiling gybe!!!


This makes alot of sense... its plainly about timing. Everything I read said to start the tack when the kite reaches 12 but I think waiting until the kite is well past zenith before carving should tighten the timing. Analytically having power the whole way through the movement is where I always fail.

ActionSportsWA
WA, 605 posts
29 Aug 2018 11:42AM
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Hey guys,

I used to make the mistake of trying to turn the board all the way through the tack onto the new tack. I pinch up into the wind in preparation of the tack, then bring the kite to 12, at that point I turn the board slightly more upwind into the eye of the wind. Having forward speed is crucial. The hard crank on the kite to the new direction at this point actually pulls my body (back foot into the new windward strap on the front) and the board around onto the new tack where you have speed and the kite already powering on the new tack. Spin the bar and grin.

DM

dachopper
WA, 1361 posts
29 Aug 2018 5:32PM
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ActionSportsWA said..
Hey guys,

I used to make the mistake of trying to turn the board all the way through the tack onto the new tack. I pinch up into the wind in preparation of the tack, then bring the kite to 12, at that point I turn the board slightly more upwind into the eye of the wind. Having forward speed is crucial. The hard crank on the kite to the new direction at this point actually pulls my body (back foot into the new windward strap on the front) and the board around onto the new tack where you have speed and the kite already powering on the new tack. Spin the bar and grin.

DM


it's a funny feeling but when you do it correctly it makes sense....., I remember watching some other guys do it thinking why are they not falling in..... it starts feeling like your leaning over the water and starting to get pulled into the water on the side your leaning.... but witht he power in the kite it actually pulls up...... you can kind of see the timing in this guys video, it's such that if he delayed any more, he would be pulled off his board and into the water backwards.
?t=4m53s

ridgeydidge123
15 posts
29 Nov 2018 6:24AM
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dachopper said..
I think I discovered the secret of the tack today. I was previously trying to drive the board around upwind and swap feet and lean which was resulting mostly in falling off the back , or over leaning on the new tack. Then I started waiting to tack the board until the point where the kite just started pulling the wrong way. I found my foot actually pulled the board up and i was accelerating on the new tack already, giving better controlled of the board position somehow better than driving the board with lean.

:) now for the Foiling gybe!!!


Huh, this was the missing piece of the puzzle for me too. I did my first tacks today in 20-25 knots and chop thanks to this post. I guess I was trying to turn the board too early. Kite past zenith first, then feet switch and spin. Next to try and do it with enough power to stay foiling the whole way through!

RussKraut
VIC, 459 posts
29 Nov 2018 9:42PM
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Just out of interest as I am not racing, how fast is the guy in the video roughly going?

Gorgo
VIC, 4041 posts
29 Nov 2018 10:28PM
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dachopper said..
I think I discovered the secret of the tack today. I was previously trying to drive the board around upwind and swap feet and lean which was resulting mostly in falling off the back , or over leaning on the new tack. Then I started waiting to tack the board until the point where the kite just started pulling the wrong way. I found my foot actually pulled the board up and i was accelerating on the new tack already, giving better controlled of the board position somehow better than driving the board with lean.

:) now for the Foiling gybe!!!


That's bizarre. I can foiling gybe effortlessly. I can't tack for nuts.

I have tried the kite dragging thing. I'll give it a bit more effort tomorrow.

Kamikuza
QLD, 3514 posts
29 Nov 2018 10:55PM
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Gorgo said..

That's bizarre. I can foiling gybe effortlessly. I can't tack for nuts.

I have tried the kite dragging thing. I'll give it a bit more effort tomorrow.


I've had like a dozen attempts at tacking ... simply can't get my brain around explanations or videos, so I'm just going and trying it. Best result was getting around on the board but the kite in the wrong place and getting pulled over.

Seems kind of pointless to me gybing is more fun!

dachopper
WA, 1361 posts
30 Nov 2018 2:07AM
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Kite hard upwind , lean over heaps so your ass is near the water, slowly drive the kite up and past 12 the other way still cutting up hard, then as kite pulls the other way, bar in a little,bend front leg, straighten rear to turn + pull board through the tack, as your body gets over the board( due to bending front leg ) ram other leg in other front foot slot and immediately stomp new back foot back.... it's all in the timing... just after zenith. And I agree it feels nuts, if you did this on a twintip 100% you would back slap on the water

oldbones
QLD, 93 posts
30 Nov 2018 8:11AM
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RussKraut said..
Just out of interest as I am not racing, how fast is the guy in the video roughly going?


About 20knots upwind at an angle of 45% to wind, and about 30knots downwind similar angle.

eddiemorgs
NT, 334 posts
30 Nov 2018 9:05AM
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Kamikuza said..

Gorgo said..

That's bizarre. I can foiling gybe effortlessly. I can't tack for nuts.

I have tried the kite dragging thing. I'll give it a bit more effort tomorrow.



I've had like a dozen attempts at tacking ... simply can't get my brain around explanations or videos, so I'm just going and trying it. Best result was getting around on the board but the kite in the wrong place and getting pulled over.

Seems kind of pointless to me gybing is more fun!


Totally agree , dont see the point on a sb either , although it can look cool. But I am not not cool , so it will never work for me

Kamikuza
QLD, 3514 posts
30 Nov 2018 10:46AM
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eddiemorgs said..

Kamikuza said..


Gorgo said..

That's bizarre. I can foiling gybe effortlessly. I can't tack for nuts.

I have tried the kite dragging thing. I'll give it a bit more effort tomorrow.




I've had like a dozen attempts at tacking ... simply can't get my brain around explanations or videos, so I'm just going and trying it. Best result was getting around on the board but the kite in the wrong place and getting pulled over.

Seems kind of pointless to me gybing is more fun!



Totally agree , dont see the point on a sb either , although it can look cool. But I am not not cool , so it will never work for me


Saves your gains when trying to get upwind on a SB in light wind. I can't do it consistently on a SB, and I do it the "wrong" way -- duck gybe, I think.

Gorgo
VIC, 4041 posts
30 Nov 2018 12:17PM
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I can think of three reasons to learn foil tacks:

1. It's a useful transition when you want to save space downwind (jamming upwind or close inshore in the wave zone)

2. It looks like fun.

3. It seems every other ferker can do it, but I can't. I can do everything else on the foil and some things other people can't do, but not the ferkin tack. Grrrr!!!!!

ridgeydidge123
15 posts
30 Nov 2018 10:44AM
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Gorgo said..
I can think of three reasons to learn foil tacks:

1. It's a useful transition when you want to save space downwind (jamming upwind or close inshore in the wave zone)

2. It looks like fun.

3. It seems every other ferker can do it, but I can't. I can do everything else on the foil and some things other people can't do, but not the ferkin tack. Grrrr!!!!!


4. It's a lot less scary going into a tack in 25 knots than it is to gybe.

ActionSportsWA
WA, 605 posts
30 Nov 2018 10:52AM
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RussKraut said..
Just out of interest as I am not racing, how fast is the guy in the video roughly going?



Hi Russ,

They would be doing around 22-24knots upwind. Wind speed looks around 10-12knots.

DM

RussKraut
VIC, 459 posts
30 Nov 2018 8:21PM
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Kamikuza said..


eddiemorgs said..



Kamikuza said..




Gorgo said..

That's bizarre. I can foiling gybe effortlessly. I can't tack for nuts.

I have tried the kite dragging thing. I'll give it a bit more effort tomorrow.






I've had like a dozen attempts at tacking ... simply can't get my brain around explanations or videos, so I'm just going and trying it. Best result was getting around on the board but the kite in the wrong place and getting pulled over.

Seems kind of pointless to me gybing is more fun!





Totally agree , dont see the point on a sb either , although it can look cool. But I am not not cool , so it will never work for me




Saves your gains when trying to get upwind on a SB in light wind. I can't do it consistently on a SB, and I do it the "wrong" way -- duck gybe, I think.



I do both tacks on sb but no chance on a foil so far. Thanks for the speed indications. God I am so slow...

dafish
NSW, 1258 posts
1 Dec 2018 8:17AM
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I am in the same boat as several of you. Gybes are easy, both slow and at speed. I tend to swap my feet after the gybe or through it on my natural side, and swap early on my goofy and carve around. I think those that can't gybe yet should practice carving straight down wind at a slower speed just to get used to the first half of the turn.
I am still struggling with the 360 degree turn, but have managed a few. Tacks have been hard, but I really have not put the time I need into them. This summer I hope to crack that but most of the places where I foil require no tacking and I don't race. Saying that though, foiling always presents new challenges.

dachopper
WA, 1361 posts
1 Dec 2018 11:38AM
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dafish said..
I am in the same boat as several of you. Gybes are easy, both slow and at speed. I tend to swap my feet after the gybe or through it on my natural side, and swap early on my goofy and carve around. I think those that can't gybe yet should practice carving straight down wind at a slower speed just to get used to the first half of the turn.
I am still struggling with the 360 degree turn, but have managed a few. Tacks have been hard, but I really have not put the time I need into them. This summer I hope to crack that but most of the places where I foil require no tacking and I don't race. Saying that though, foiling always presents new challenges.


I accidentally did a 360 turn when I was learning to tack, I sent the kite over too fast from 12 and looped it, and it pulled me all the way round. before I had a chance to move my feet. Once of those ... yeah I meant to do that moments :)

Do you feel that you ride toe side much during the gybe ?

Livit
WA, 393 posts
1 Dec 2018 1:27PM
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eddiemorgs said..


Kamikuza said..



I've had like a dozen attempts at tacking ... simply can't get my brain around explanations or videos, so I'm just going and trying it. Best result was getting around on the board but the kite in the wrong place and getting pulled over.

Seems kind of pointless to me gybing is more fun!



Totally agree , dont see the point on a sb either , although it can look cool. But I am not not cool , so it will never work for me


Gybing is easy and fun for sure but personally, I get bored if I always do the same stuffs. Tacking rewards you with a better understanding of your foil - kite combination and opens up a variety of other tricks. Well worth a 1000 fails/stacks/crashes IMO.

Gorgo
VIC, 4041 posts
1 Dec 2018 7:07PM
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I reckon I've done about 100 tack attempts. A few glimmers of progress have happened in the last couple of session. 900 more tack attempts to go.

ActionSportsWA
WA, 605 posts
1 Dec 2018 5:34PM
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Just as an add,

Ram Air or "foil" kites make tacking significantly easier as they provide the lift you need during the foot swap part without nose diving the board. If you can tack on an inflatable kite, you are doing really well.

My experience too, if you don't get plenty of time on the water and keep practicing, you lose the skills pretty quickly.

DM

dafish
NSW, 1258 posts
2 Dec 2018 8:07AM
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dachopper said..

dafish said..
I am in the same boat as several of you. Gybes are easy, both slow and at speed. I tend to swap my feet after the gybe or through it on my natural side, and swap early on my goofy and carve around. I think those that can't gybe yet should practice carving straight down wind at a slower speed just to get used to the first half of the turn.
I am still struggling with the 360 degree turn, but have managed a few. Tacks have been hard, but I really have not put the time I need into them. This summer I hope to crack that but most of the places where I foil require no tacking and I don't race. Saying that though, foiling always presents new challenges.



I accidentally did a 360 turn when I was learning to tack, I sent the kite over too fast from 12 and looped it, and it pulled me all the way round. before I had a chance to move my feet. Once of those ... yeah I meant to do that moments :)

Do you feel that you ride toe side much during the gybe ?


No not really. I switch generally half way around on my port run, then on the starboard run I switch just before the gybe. I really only ride toeside when I am carving down the line on a down wind run or if I want to race up to a little wave to carve into. Toeside on long tacks I find hard on my body, don't get the same upwind angle, and tires me out more easily.

Gorgo
VIC, 4041 posts
2 Dec 2018 12:27PM
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I suspect when we talk about "tack" and "gybe" people are envisaging different things. I gybe to heelside or toeside, and swap feet either before or after the transition. Depending on the conditions and my dominant direction, the foot swap is instantaneous or delayed.

The thing that makes tacking frustrating is that I see people do them apparently effortlessly, in both heelside and toeside directions and with and without foot swaps. I'm sure it is that easy, I'm just doing it wrong. When I work it out I'll wonder why it was so difficult.

J Shapes make a point of designing products that can be used with regular kites. The videos that follow show people carving around on surf kites (Ozone Enduro specifically).

Gunnar Binniasch doing upwind carves.



and Antoine from J Shapes

dachopper
WA, 1361 posts
2 Dec 2018 12:38PM
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ActionSportsWA said..
Just as an add,

Ram Air or "foil" kites make tacking significantly easier as they provide the lift you need during the foot swap part without nose diving the board. If you can tack on an inflatable kite, you are doing really well.

My experience too, if you don't get plenty of time on the water and keep practicing, you lose the skills pretty quickly.

DM


Good point - I found it easiest to tack if you have a larger sized kite up..... Ie if you could foil on a 7m, but take a 10m instead to get low speed pull during the tack



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"Foiling tack" started by dachopper