Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

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Created by KIT33R 6 months ago, 7 Jan 2020
KIT33R
NSW, 1693 posts
7 Jan 2020 12:25PM
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I've been riding a Shinn P foil (learners foil) for 18 months now and it is time to find a faster setup. I've tried a few foils but most people are bigger and heavier than me. I have trouble keeping the foils in the water since I only weigh 64kg. I'd like a few suggestions as to what would suit my weight.

Evan Chia
QLD, 39 posts
7 Jan 2020 12:01PM
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That foil's got a big surface area (1150sqcm). A foil that has less surface area (around 600sqcm) will be faster and have less lift (easier to hold down). That being said, even at your weight, you should be able to ride a bigger wing if it's set up right, and your kite is not too big.

DukeSilver
WA, 310 posts
7 Jan 2020 3:48PM
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There's a Moses 590 for sale on SB at the moment for $1100. That would be a beautiful upgrade for you.

weebitbreezy
469 posts
7 Jan 2020 9:03PM
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Have you looked at the K2 wing? Supposed to be a good second season wing?

Plummet
4727 posts
8 Jan 2020 12:47AM
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You can also try adjusting the angle of attack of the rear wing. If the foil is driving you out of the water at speed that points to the fact that there is too much AOA for your weight/speed. Shim the stabilizer and all your troubles might go away.

AquaPlow
QLD, 911 posts
10 Jan 2020 7:09AM
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Kitr33 hi.. Noticed your nifty DIY board.
I have Slingshot kit, I moved from huge board to carbonco wook = 1300 long and also 70cm mast.. This setup would likely sink if I went to 90 cm mast. So be aware of that when buying next set. The infinity 76 wing I use is huge and at 72 - 75 pies I have no problem with holding pitch. But the mast position is sensitive!!!!
Look at the x-section of the wing. It can be huge wing but have a fairly symmetrical profile so the lift profile is slower to build and wider so bigger speed envelope.
I am looking at building a carbon mast (for fun!!) To attach to infinity... As I love the low wind performance.... But Armstrong kit is on the radar after making the mistake of reading that g8 review....
So suggest check bouyancy of current board
Cheers
AP

BTW I played around with shimms as per above whilst building muscle memory. Useful. Currently I have O-rings on stabilizer which I think helps with moving around... All my current attempts at tacks etc would not notice that degree of finesse

KIT33R
NSW, 1693 posts
10 Jan 2020 9:26AM
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Select to expand quote
weebitbreezy said..
Have you looked at the K2 wing? Supposed to be a good second season wing?



Yes, tried the K2, a nice wing but still too much lift. In order to keep it down my stance was uncomfortably wide. As Plummet says - adjusting AOA of the stabilizer might be advantageous if this option is available. Not all rear wings can be adjusted though.

AquaPlow
QLD, 911 posts
10 Jan 2020 5:26PM
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Select to expand quote
KIT33R said..

weebitbreezy said..
Have you looked at the K2 wing? Supposed to be a good second season wing?




Yes, tried the K2, a nice wing but still too much lift. In order to keep it down my stance was uncomfortably wide. As Plummet says - adjusting AOA of the stabilizer might be advantageous if this option is available. Not all rear wings can be adjusted though.


KIT33R,
To shim, as long as the stabiliser is bolted on, all you need to do is add one or more stainless washers under the front or the back of the stabiliser held in place by the bolt. If you find a particular setup you like you can optionally make a single insert to better fit.
Just give it a crack.
Alternately a Canard setup which distributes the lift over both surfaces may suit better especially if you enjoy the surf board style weighting and foot movement (Zeeko Spitfire is an example - hopefully someone can comment).
Cheers
AP

KIT33R
NSW, 1693 posts
10 Jan 2020 6:46PM
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Select to expand quote
AquaPlow said..

KIT33R said..


weebitbreezy said..
Have you looked at the K2 wing? Supposed to be a good second season wing?





Yes, tried the K2, a nice wing but still too much lift. In order to keep it down my stance was uncomfortably wide. As Plummet says - adjusting AOA of the stabilizer might be advantageous if this option is available. Not all rear wings can be adjusted though.



KIT33R,
To shim, as long as the stabiliser is bolted on, all you need to do is add one or more stainless washers under the front or the back of the stabiliser held in place by the bolt. If you find a particular setup you like you can optionally make a single insert to better fit.
Just give it a crack.
Alternately a Canard setup which distributes the lift over both surfaces may suit better especially if you enjoy the surf board style weighting and foot movement (Zeeko Spitfire is an example - hopefully someone can comment).
Cheers
AP


Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need a "slot" rather than a "screw hole" to effectively shim a stabilizer so that the wing can pivot otherwise the hole will not line up?

KBGhost
QLD, 97 posts
10 Jan 2020 10:09PM
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KIT33R said..
Any reviews on the Axis 545?

https://axisfoils.com/collections/kite-foil-wings/products/2019-k-series-545-carbon-front-wing


I can give you a kinda review, or first impressions anyway. Had my 2nd session today (1st yesterday) going from older axis with 600 wing to current axis with 545 wing.

Hard to judge lift as both sessions were super light, mostly 9-12kts. Less lift than the 600 but not a great deal more speed required to lift off and I didn't notice any earlier stalling. Riding a carbonco Nang 100 at 93kgs.

In the lulls sometimes took 3-4 loops of the 12m to get moving, then I was well powered. Sometimes struggled to keep the kite in the air after failed foot switch transitions, that's how light both sessions were.

Wing felt great to me, immediately at home. Responsive but not twitchy, and fast without feeling fast. I had a downwind cruise at 17kts today which was really fast for the conditions and the wing made it feel cruisy where the 600 would have been topping out (for me anyway) and generally feeling more sketchy where the 545 was rock solid.

The other thing I noticed is that I have been closer to nailing foot switches than with the larger wing. Not sure how that works, I expected the opposite. It seems like a stable foil.

I'm not good enough to give a complete review, but that's been my feeling. I was thinking today that I got on it and immediately felt 5% better than I used to be. I was planning to switch back to the 600 after trying the 545 but I think I'll keep it on now. I'm looking forward to some stronger wind to try pumping the speed up...

Today's session.

www.relive.cc/view/vE6Jd5yoJgv

KIT33R
NSW, 1693 posts
11 Jan 2020 9:12AM
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KBGhost said..

KIT33R said..
Any reviews on the Axis 545?

https://axisfoils.com/collections/kite-foil-wings/products/2019-k-series-545-carbon-front-wing



I can give you a kinda review, or first impressions anyway. Had my 2nd session today (1st yesterday) going from older axis with 600 wing to current axis with 545 wing.

Hard to judge lift as both sessions were super light, mostly 9-12kts. Less lift than the 600 but not a great deal more speed required to lift off and I didn't notice any earlier stalling. Riding a carbonco Nang 100 at 93kgs.

In the lulls sometimes took 3-4 loops of the 12m to get moving, then I was well powered. Sometimes struggled to keep the kite in the air after failed foot switch transitions, that's how light both sessions were.

Wing felt great to me, immediately at home. Responsive but not twitchy, and fast without feeling fast. I had a downwind cruise at 17kts today which was really fast for the conditions and the wing made it feel cruisy where the 600 would have been topping out (for me anyway) and generally feeling more sketchy where the 545 was rock solid.

The other thing I noticed is that I have been closer to nailing foot switches than with the larger wing. Not sure how that works, I expected the opposite. It seems like a stable foil.

I'm not good enough to give a complete review, but that's been my feeling. I was thinking today that I got on it and immediately felt 5% better than I used to be. I was planning to switch back to the 600 after trying the 545 but I think I'll keep it on now. I'm looking forward to some stronger wind to try pumping the speed up...

Today's session.

www.relive.cc/view/vE6Jd5yoJgv



Thanks, that's incouraging. One reason this wing interests me is the availablility of demo gear.

Plummet
4727 posts
11 Jan 2020 7:38AM
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Select to expand quote
KIT33R said..

AquaPlow said..


KIT33R said..



weebitbreezy said..
Have you looked at the K2 wing? Supposed to be a good second season wing?






Yes, tried the K2, a nice wing but still too much lift. In order to keep it down my stance was uncomfortably wide. As Plummet says - adjusting AOA of the stabilizer might be advantageous if this option is available. Not all rear wings can be adjusted though.




KIT33R,
To shim, as long as the stabiliser is bolted on, all you need to do is add one or more stainless washers under the front or the back of the stabiliser held in place by the bolt. If you find a particular setup you like you can optionally make a single insert to better fit.
Just give it a crack.
Alternately a Canard setup which distributes the lift over both surfaces may suit better especially if you enjoy the surf board style weighting and foot movement (Zeeko Spitfire is an example - hopefully someone can comment).
Cheers
AP



Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need a "slot" rather than a "screw hole" to effectively shim a stabilizer so that the wing can pivot otherwise the hole will not line up?


Cut little strips of duct tape. If you have too much lift you want to reduce stabiliser aoa relative to the front wing. Try 1/2 degree less.

If the stab is on top of the fuse then shim the front of the wing.

Kamikuza
QLD, 5627 posts
11 Jan 2020 7:40PM
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Select to expand quote
KIT33R said..
I've been riding a Shinn P foil (learners foil) for 18 months now and it is time to find a faster setup. I've tried a few foils but most people are bigger and heavier than me. I have trouble keeping the foils in the water since I only weigh 64kg. I'd like a few suggestions as to what would suit my weight.


We have guys smaller than you riding 2,500cm2 foils here. Check your technique...not being rude, honest.

Or if the foil is "poorly trimmed" and actually nosing up uncontrollably at speed, you'll need to trim it. But then you can introduce other problems.

tyro
TAS, 29 posts
11 Jan 2020 11:00PM
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just out of interest, what rear wing is on your foil and do you have the two little pieces (shims?) under the rear wing?
I find with the P wing, that I have to have my board attached on the front most setting to keep it down when taking off, but I'm heavier than you, after that there are no issues with balance. If everything is compatible with your current setup why not look at a model F wing if your chasing speed/smaller wing, then keep the p wing for surf and mucking round on?

KIT33R
NSW, 1693 posts
12 Jan 2020 10:42AM
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Select to expand quote
tyro said..
just out of interest, what rear wing is on your foil and do you have the two little pieces (shims?) under the rear wing?
I find with the P wing, that I have to have my board attached on the front most setting to keep it down when taking off, but I'm heavier than you, after that there are no issues with balance. If everything is compatible with your current setup why not look at a model F wing if your chasing speed/smaller wing, then keep the p wing for surf and mucking round on?



My P foil does not have shims on the rear wing, maybe it's an older model. It's well balanced for me. I have equal weight between my feet and yes it does jump up early. The Model F has been around a few years but maybe worth a look. I had the good fortune to spend an hour with Mark Shinn recently. He stressed how critical very small changes in the AOA of the rear wing is to having a rideable foil to one which is unstable.

Plummet
4727 posts
12 Jan 2020 8:59AM
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KIT33R said..
I had the good fortune to spend an hour with Mark Shinn recently. He stressed how critical very small changes in the AOA of the rear wing is to having a rideable foil to one which is unstable.


That's why shimming with bits of duct tape is effective. Gives you a small incremental change. Way less than the thickness of a washer. Add a couple of strips of tape and test. Add more/less and keep testing. You can literally do a run come into the beach and slap another strip on in 5 mins.

I found that the better I got the less aoa I wanted. Reduce aoa and you have more maneuverability and less stability and less front foot pressure. I was definitely getting driven out of the water at speed with too much aoa. When you think about it. A production foil is set up for a 75-80kg dude. The aoa is set to counteract the weight of that person leaning forward. It makes sense that a lighter guy would need less aoa as he has less mass to counteract the stab aoa.

The good thing about adjusting aoa is that it costs nothing. Well, maybe a $10 for a roll of duct tape. You might as well try it before you resign yourself to buying another foil.

KIT33R
NSW, 1693 posts
12 Jan 2020 1:01PM
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Select to expand quote
Plummet said..

KIT33R said..
I had the good fortune to spend an hour with Mark Shinn recently. He stressed how critical very small changes in the AOA of the rear wing is to having a rideable foil to one which is unstable.



That's why shimming with bits of duct tape is effective. Gives you a small incremental change. Way less than the thickness of a washer. Add a couple of strips of tape and test. Add more/less and keep testing. You can literally do a run come into the beach and slap another strip on in 5 mins.

I found that the better I got the less aoa I wanted. Reduce aoa and you have more maneuverability and less stability and less front foot pressure. I was definitely getting driven out of the water at speed with too much aoa. When you think about it. A production foil is set up for a 75-80kg dude. The aoa is set to counteract the weight of that person leaning forward. It makes sense that a lighter guy would need less aoa as he has less mass to counteract the stab aoa.

The good thing about adjusting aoa is that it costs nothing. Well, maybe a $10 for a roll of duct tape. You might as well try it before you resign yourself to buying another foil.


Makes sense.



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"Time to progress" started by KIT33R