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Starboard Slalom 650 Wing

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Created by WillyWind > 9 months ago, 22 Apr 2021
Freeflight
111 posts
24 Nov 2021 6:06AM
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Jules67 said..
Aeroengr, Bit late to the party on this but was struggling to get my Seabreeze login working. Apologies in advance for the monologue...

I have been using a modified Starboard GTR set up fro about a year now. 95 carbon mast, 95+fuse, 800 front wing and the 255-2 rear wing. I have the original JP135 Hydrofoil (heavier epoxy sandwich). I sail on Botany bay in anything from 14-15kn with an old 8.4m Maui TRX up to about 22kn plus gusts with a 5.6m. Before this set up I had an original slingshot aluminium foil (older blue wings) that maxed out at about 23knots and was pretty scary. On the GTR I got 24kn almost straight away and worked up to 26kn back in February. Since then, I have been playing with a whole bunch of adjustments over winter to increase speed.

Rear shims: from -2.0 to -0.5 (noting that the 255 stab is already -2);
Mast track position: as far forward as possible for a while, but now backed off slightly;
Footstraps: Removed rear footstraps (about 4 sessions) for easy weight shifting downwind to control flight height, but found I really struggled controlling the board on the reach with only the front strap, particularly in stronger winds where you want to angle the upwind rail. They are back on now;
Changed footstrap positions AND angles; I squared the front strap up to move my front heel forward for more frontwards pressure but then my foot was getting stuck in the strap during gybes (not pleasant trying to yank your foot out mid gybe - tends to launch the board in an unwanted direction (upwards, sideways ).
Harness: started with waist harness, but much prefer seat harness for me as it allows me to create more mast foot pressure to control ride height.
Boom height: higher is definitely better for me, with harness lines spread wider than normal and front strap slightly further forward. Again I find this helps with really hanging on the boom on downwind runs to get the weight into the mastfoot to control ride height and take the gusts through to the board without sheeting out.
In/out of rear strap: I have tried both. Out definitely a LOT less scary providing the ability to quickly weight shift when the board rises too quickly (and the ease of rapid dismount ) but I struggle to get as much power from the gusts through the mast foot so try to use both straps whenever possible.

So after all of this, I got up to 27.4kn about a month ago which was pleasing progression. However, the 800 wing does feel like it struggles to accelerate quickly at this speed. So I ordered the 650 wing and a 115++ fuse from France which arrived early last week. Theory is that I can use the 115++ with the 800 in lighter winds with smaller sails (rather than buy a larger 1000 front wing) although yet to test that combo. Tried the 650 wing/95+fuse/255-2 with -0.5shim last Thursday with Dieter in about 20-24kn NEer using a 6.2m Severne R8 - we both did max 2s of 29.5kn! The 650 is so much quicker to accelerate in gusts, but also way looser. A few scary breaches, swerves and catapults when heading more downwind, one of which left me upside down about 1m underwater . It felt like it preferred more broad reach with a bit of board angle to keep some pressure against the foil. My sailing style was Bouncing Dolphin. Seemed much harder to control ride height, although it was pretty gusty conditions, so now need to try different shim angles.

Just watched a video that suggested more down haul with slalom sails for downwind runs.

Can't wait to get out again and see what's next.


Thanks for your insight Jules, very articulate, keep pushing, hope to read about your 30kt ride soon :-))

berowne
NSW, 1210 posts
27 Nov 2021 9:31AM
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I've always prefered a seat harnsess for slalom and speed sailing but with so few examples of them being used on foils I have swapped. But like Jules notes, I think for absoute downforce the seat will have an advantage. I'll be trying again. One beachside commentator said that the problem with a seat harness is that it can easily LIFT you off your feet, so reduce pressure on your feet. We will see...

aeroegnr
1478 posts
27 Nov 2021 10:08AM
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berowne said..
I've always prefered a seat harnsess for slalom and speed sailing but with so few examples of them being used on foils I have swapped. But like Jules notes, I think for absoute downforce the seat will have an advantage. I'll be trying again. One beachside commentator said that the problem with a seat harness is that it can easily LIFT you off your feet, so reduce pressure on your feet. We will see...


What kind of harness lines are you running?I've noticed that the Goyards have the extremely long race lines that I bought a couple months ago. Even at their shortest, they are as long or longer than my Chinook adjustable race lines that I have on my freeride booms. They've got them longer than I usually run them, and it looks like they are getting fairly horizontal a lot of the time...

Look at 1:20 for instance, not breaking speed records at that moment but those are pretty long lines:



Looks like they are running a similar line setup in this video too, but no extreme closeup. They look to be set much longer than I ever use on freeride gear (not that I'm particularly great on a fin but you can't get lines that long to my knowledge without going all out race lines):

berowne
NSW, 1210 posts
27 Nov 2021 3:13PM
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I like the lowside crash at 1:03 where Nico sped out the side of the gust into nothing and fell back...

aeroegnr
1478 posts
9 Jan 2022 3:02AM
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Had a really good session today with the 650.

I think the main reason was the following trim for going out in 12-16ish knots until it died:

115+ Fuse
0deg shim
Mast base at the furthest forward mark, then even further past that
Boom ~2 major marks lower than I would be in light wind
Decent amount of outhaul
9.0 HGO
Harness lines: long but not quite all the way

I had done most of my foiling with the mast base at the center mark (dumb?) in the past, regardless of wing/wind. I would get really out of shape with gusts pushing to 20kts.

The mast base far forward helped a LOT. Enough that I was able to break my PB of just under 21 knots to now 22.8kts.

I think there's a lot more to squeak out of it still with the 9.0, it's just dependent on the rider. A smaller sail would probably be faster, easier. I also wonder if I had been using my 95+ instead of the 115+...

With all those trim adjustments I was able to more comfortably hike out a bit. I saw how doing hand drags would be possible once I was in the rear strap, but pushing it too hard upwind got me a couple crashes. Still learning quite a bit.

SA_AL
268 posts
10 Jan 2022 12:40PM
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WillyWind said..

philsurfdude said..



Based on what I was told by a starboard guy, the 650 pairs well with all fuselages. I have the 115+ and 95+. I live in a place with very gusty wind. When I use the 1000 I feel the 115+ is more comfortable than the 95+. I only care about having a wing less powerful than the 1000 because the 1000 becomes too lifty above 25mph winds (at least with my skill level). BTW, I know a smaller fuselage helps with lift.
I ordered a 650 because I think the 725 will overlap a little bit more with the 1000 than the 650.


I recently got 115+ fuselage with 1000 front wing -255 backwing 0 shim using 150 L freeride board. I have been struggling to manage balanced runs as I felt it's very slippery with the set up. Today for the first time I use my 800 front wing, I felt very balanced compared to 1000 wing. I felt I could load my weight on the sail and keep board steady while 1000 was not easy manage. I am curious if you see a difference between these wings and given the same conditions and same set up. Based on discussion so far, I may also use 650 front wing when it is very strong windy days.

DarrylG
WA, 494 posts
10 Jan 2022 5:10PM
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SA_AL said..

WillyWind said..


philsurfdude said..




Based on what I was told by a starboard guy, the 650 pairs well with all fuselages. I have the 115+ and 95+. I live in a place with very gusty wind. When I use the 1000 I feel the 115+ is more comfortable than the 95+. I only care about having a wing less powerful than the 1000 because the 1000 becomes too lifty above 25mph winds (at least with my skill level). BTW, I know a smaller fuselage helps with lift.
I ordered a 650 because I think the 725 will overlap a little bit more with the 1000 than the 650.



I recently got 115+ fuselage with 1000 front wing -255 backwing 0 shim using 150 L freeride board. I have been struggling to manage balanced runs as I felt it's very slippery with the set up. Today for the first time I use my 800 front wing, I felt very balanced compared to 1000 wing. I felt I could load my weight on the sail and keep board steady while 1000 was not easy manage. I am curious if you see a difference between these wings and given the same conditions and same set up. Based on discussion so far, I may also use 650 front wing when it is very strong windy days.


Yes just changing down the size of the front wing will increase the stability of the setup.
Think of it this way, increasing the size of the front wing will reduce the proportional effect of the rear wing. ( decreasing longitudinal stability)
And reducing the front wing size will increase the proportional effect of the rear wing ( increasing stability)
I would recommend trying the +1 shim with the 1000 wing next time.

Also remember wing size will be more linked to your speed than to the wind speed. How fast you think you will be going will determine the wing size you should be using. Easy to fall into the trap on a rough high wind day of going too small and never really getting the wing up to speed.

LeeD
3939 posts
14 Jan 2022 1:28AM
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1000 for windfoil, in hi aspect form, is huge and should be limited to sub 19 breeze and course slalom.
600 is a good allaround slalom size, adjusting stab and sail sizing for breeze from 15-25.
Smaller needs steady boatspeed? which comes with skill, steady breeze, and active sailor.
Rider from around 65 -90 kg.

aeroegnr
1478 posts
14 Jan 2022 1:43AM
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LeeD said..
1000 for windfoil, in hi aspect form, is huge and should be limited to sub 19 breeze and course slalom.
600 is a good allaround slalom size, adjusting stab and sail sizing for breeze from 15-25.
Smaller needs steady boatspeed? which comes with skill, steady breeze, and active sailor.
Rider from around 65 -90 kg.


I noticed when I was sailing the 650 last, I was not needing to pump that much because I was well-powered on the 9.0, but I got into a windsurf stance to get the board planing up to flying speed.

One of the other times I was flying it, it was marginal for that setup and I had to pump all the way to flying, but I could do it.

LeeD
3939 posts
14 Jan 2022 9:52AM
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Hmm...at 73 kg, I use the Naish 600 in 15 knot breeze with a 4.7. 310 stab. With 210 stab, would need a 5.2 to 5.8 sail.
Of course, our 600 front wings are different.

LeeD
3939 posts
14 Jan 2022 9:54AM
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Oh, compared Naish 600 to F4, both same thickness in center, F4 getting slightly thinner about 4" from wingtip to actual tips.

segler
WA, 1597 posts
15 Jan 2022 2:38AM
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Similar experience. At 90 kg, my SAB 720 (750 cm2) requires constant pedal to the metal to keep it going. I suppose I will get used to that.

On the other hand, my SAB 950 (1350 cm2) just flies and flies. Easy to ride.

When we get some summer again up in the north half of earth, I will try out my SAB 940 (1100 cm2).

LeeD
3939 posts
15 Jan 2022 3:28AM
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Bigger stab gives easier flying with sub 650 front wings.?

Jules67
NSW, 8 posts
17 Jan 2022 12:38PM
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Some really interesting discussions here. I think it is important to calibrate the forum feedback to your local conditions in 3 areas - weight, venue, foiling experience.
Weight - I am 84-88kg (depending on season ) so definitely need some additional lift in lower winds. Larger sail size, larger front wing (800cm2 is my largest) and now the 115++ fuse, which sets the front wing even further forward and provides ridiculously quick lift on the reach, resulting in some interesting breach launches.
Location - I have always read in amazement about people foiling in 8 knots of wind, which I wouldn't even consider here in Sydney on a low aspect foil. Maybe not hugely significant but air temperature, pressure and humidity all affect the air density. So cold, low humidity air can have up to 10-15% more 'weight' than hot, humid air for the same wind speed. Wind consistency is also a big factor (see below).
Foiling experience (TOW) - from what I have read, most foilers go through speed stages, where you max out at a certain speed for a while, then maybe make a couple of changes and get another speed burst. I was talking about this with Berowne yesterday, how we were both stuck around the 23-24kn mark for a while. As with all sailing I think the time-on-water improves your reading of the conditions, how to respond and your response time to make the many subtle adjustments needed to keep the board at a fairly constant flight height. Fast is still scary as hell though

Example: sailed on Friday in 15-19kn with a Maui TRX 8.4 and the 800 front wing. A little overpowered in the peaks but perfect in the 15-18kn range and sailed across the holes. The 800 does feel like it maxes out at 28kn for me, probably because I aim to ride about 20cm above the water to have buffer for the gusts. The really fast guys look to be flying higher which would reduce mast drag.
Personally, I am looking to use the 650 in upwards of about 18kn wind.

Re harness lines - I just reduced mine from 30 down to about 26-28, with the waist harness to get more downforce on the board. May not be the right way to go but also depends on wind consistency. Leaning back and keeping lots of upwind rail pressure is probably great if you have a consistent wind, but Sydney can be very gusty (particularly this year) with bullets followed by lulls, so hard to get that low to the water. But try it out and see what works

aeroegnr
1478 posts
17 Jan 2022 11:48PM
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Jules67 said..

Foiling experience (TOW) - from what I have read, most foilers go through speed stages, where you max out at a certain speed for a while, then maybe make a couple of changes and get another speed burst. I was talking about this with Berowne yesterday, how we were both stuck around the 23-24kn mark for a while. As with all sailing I think the time-on-water improves your reading of the conditions, how to respond and your response time to make the many subtle adjustments needed to keep the board at a fairly constant flight height. Fast is still scary as hell though



I'm wondering how much of this is purely psychological from hearing a certain note from the foil, vs. hearing a higher pitched one once you start speeding up.

Freeflight
111 posts
18 Jan 2022 4:17AM
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Jules67 said..
Some really interesting discussions here. I think it is important to calibrate the forum feedback to your local conditions in 3 areas - weight, venue, foiling experience.
Weight - I am 84-88kg (depending on season ) so definitely need some additional lift in lower winds. Larger sail size, larger front wing (800cm2 is my largest) and now the 115++ fuse, which sets the front wing even further forward and provides ridiculously quick lift on the reach, resulting in some interesting breach launches.
Location - I have always read in amazement about people foiling in 8 knots of wind, which I wouldn't even consider here in Sydney on a low aspect foil. Maybe not hugely significant but air temperature, pressure and humidity all affect the air density. So cold, low humidity air can have up to 10-15% more 'weight' than hot, humid air for the same wind speed. Wind consistency is also a big factor (see below).
Foiling experience (TOW) - from what I have read, most foilers go through speed stages, where you max out at a certain speed for a while, then maybe make a couple of changes and get another speed burst. I was talking about this with Berowne yesterday, how we were both stuck around the 23-24kn mark for a while. As with all sailing I think the time-on-water improves your reading of the conditions, how to respond and your response time to make the many subtle adjustments needed to keep the board at a fairly constant flight height. Fast is still scary as hell though

Example: sailed on Friday in 15-19kn with a Maui TRX 8.4 and the 800 front wing. A little overpowered in the peaks but perfect in the 15-18kn range and sailed across the holes. The 800 does feel like it maxes out at 28kn for me, probably because I aim to ride about 20cm above the water to have buffer for the gusts. The really fast guys look to be flying higher which would reduce mast drag.
Personally, I am looking to use the 650 in upwards of about 18kn wind.

Re harness lines - I just reduced mine from 30 down to about 26-28, with the waist harness to get more downforce on the board. May not be the right way to go but also depends on wind consistency. Leaning back and keeping lots of upwind rail pressure is probably great if you have a consistent wind, but Sydney can be very gusty (particularly this year) with bullets followed by lulls, so hard to get that low to the water. But try it out and see what works


Thanks for the update Jules, fab speed on the 800wing, great to have someone doing miles and the numbers sharing info, lots of tips in your detail
Cheers Rod

CrazyFoil
10 posts
12 Feb 2022 6:11AM
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Interesting topic to read through! After I bought my high aspect foil begin of the last year I was always on my 800 or 1000 wing. Later on I bought the 650, but was often hesitant to use it. The last sessions I took time to really find the correct setup with 650, and I can tell I never pick bigger wing any more above 14 knots. If it is around 14 knots and gusty, I go with 115+ fus with -255 & 0 shim. With this setup and my 7.8 sail... It feels so efficient.

However, at this moment my favorite combo is FW 650 105+ fus with -255 with +0.5 shim. In my experience so far, the right shim is the key to get the most out of the slalom setup. So I have tried first -0.5 then 0 then +0.5 and then 1+ but it is for me clear that 0.5 shim with this setup just perfect! So much control and just enough lift that you don't feel like you are flying on your back foot all the time. Last session was way too gusty and overpowered with my 6.8 but managed to hit 28 knots of speed. I can't wait to try this combo again in more steady winds:)

Sandman1221
2776 posts
12 Feb 2022 9:15AM
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Interesting, I only take my AFS F1080 to ~11 knots, then on F770 and it is so easy and stable, but max it out in 15-17, so getting the S670 this Monday!, will be interesting to see what my speed is like with it,very close to the SB 650 in size, AFS is reporting max of 34 knots VMG with it.

LeeD
3939 posts
12 Feb 2022 10:51AM
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All this really about smaller wings, I want to go out and dial on my 600, 210,

LeeD
3939 posts
12 Feb 2022 10:52AM
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combo with the 90 mast.
Too bad no breeze for another couple months, it seems.

Freeflight
111 posts
12 Feb 2022 1:05PM
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Sandman1221 said..
Interesting, I only take my AFS F1080 to ~11 knots, then on F770 and it is so easy and stable, but max it out in 15-17, so getting the S670 this Monday!, will be interesting to see what my speed is like with it,very close to the SB 650 in size, AFS is reporting max of 34 knots VMG with it.


your current 770cm2 is not what I would call a big wing, out of interest what is your current 2sec and 5 x 10sec speeds

Sandman1221
2776 posts
12 Feb 2022 9:32PM
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Freeflight said..

Sandman1221 said..
Interesting, I only take my AFS F1080 to ~11 knots, then on F770 and it is so easy and stable, but max it out in 15-17, so getting the S670 this Monday!, will be interesting to see what my speed is like with it,very close to the SB 650 in size, AFS is reporting max of 34 knots VMG with it.



your current 770cm2 is not what I would call a big wing, out of interest what is your current 2sec and 5 x 10sec speeds


I agree, F770 is not a big wing, but it gets me up in 11+ knots and can be controlled much easier in gusts than the F1080. To answer your question, have not checked speeds, just know I can run down very experienced kite foilers in the same conditions. Was not able to compare to windsurfers under the same conditions because they do not venture out into the middle of the bay where the wind is strongest, but closer to shore windsurfers fully powered up were passing me, but by then I was really tired (especially forearms) and could not go my max speed.

aeroegnr
1478 posts
14 Feb 2022 7:42AM
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I finally got the 650 out today with the 105+ fuse.

Not a lot of flight time. Wind meter said the gusts were up to 31kts. I don't know if it was actually THAT high but it was high enough for me to get into survival mode with my camless 6.6 Goya Mark. About 10kts higher than forecast and what it looked like to me, but I was sailing a particularly gusty spot with lots of land playing with the wind. Came back and pushed the mast base forward and gave more outhaul but even then, there was just too much power in the sail for me to feel comfortable sending it by myself with kneehigh swells.

It does feel much less twitchy than the 95+ fuse. Less forward lift, of course, and I was mostly skimming the surface as I was not used to it and was a bit overwhelmed with my sail. Hopefully there will be more appropriate weather soon to give it a shot. I may really need a cammed 6.0/7.0 to get the most out of really gusty conditions.

WillyWind
470 posts
14 Feb 2022 8:33AM
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At 165 pounds, I use a 3.7 fringe with the 650 foil and 115 plus fuse when it's over 20-25 mph gusty wind and it works quite well. It might not be the fastest setup but with that windspeed the lake usually have big chop so I prefer to hood around and practice my gybes. It's actually fun. Maybe you can just try a smaller sail of yours before buying anything else

aeroegnr
1478 posts
14 Feb 2022 8:46AM
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WillyWind said..
At 165 pounds, I use a 3.7 fringe with the 650 foil and 115 plus fuse when it's over 20-25 mph gusty wind and it works quite well. It might not be the fastest setup but with that windspeed the lake usually have big chop so I prefer to hood around and practice my gybes. It's actually fun. Maybe you can just try a smaller sail of yours before buying anything else


Yeah that's an option. So far I prefer the feel of cammed vs not but I'll have to give a 5.0 a go when it's crazy like that. My smallest at the moment.

Sandman1221
2776 posts
14 Feb 2022 9:19AM
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WillyWind said..
At 165 pounds, I use a 3.7 fringe with the 650 foil and 115 plus fuse when it's over 20-25 mph gusty wind and it works quite well. It might not be the fastest setup but with that windspeed the lake usually have big chop so I prefer to hood around and practice my gybes. It's actually fun. Maybe you can just try a smaller sail of yours before buying anything else


Good info. WillyWind, at 190 lbs I planned to use the AFS S670 with my 5.8 to 4.5 sails starting somewhere around 15-20 sustained knots, so maybe the S650 will work for those 25+ days with my 4.5 Aerotech Phantom. That is assuming the S670 is similar to the 650..

aeroegnr
1478 posts
14 Feb 2022 10:25AM
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The thing is in light wind, around 15 knots, the 650 feels GREAT with the 9.0HGO and 115+ as long as you don't reach too much. Those winds are fairly common here on summer seabreezes. I think with that 105+ fuse, reaching is going to be a lot more enjoyable. Today was a fairly rare windy day but it showed up so late I only grabbed the 9.0 and 6.6 and didn't drive a mile to less gusty places.

Sandman1221
2776 posts
14 Feb 2022 1:00PM
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aeroegnr said..
The thing is in light wind, around 15 knots, the 650 feels GREAT with the 9.0HGO and 115+ as long as you don't reach too much. Those winds are fairly common here on summer seabreezes. I think with that 105+ fuse, reaching is going to be a lot more enjoyable. Today was a fairly rare windy day but it showed up so late I only grabbed the 9.0 and 6.6 and didn't drive a mile to less gusty places.


aero you may want to check you anemometer, I get the seabreeze on the Gulf, so no obstruction, and I only wish 15 knots was common on a Summer seabreeze!

aeroegnr
1478 posts
14 Feb 2022 8:56PM
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Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..
The thing is in light wind, around 15 knots, the 650 feels GREAT with the 9.0HGO and 115+ as long as you don't reach too much. Those winds are fairly common here on summer seabreezes. I think with that 105+ fuse, reaching is going to be a lot more enjoyable. Today was a fairly rare windy day but it showed up so late I only grabbed the 9.0 and 6.6 and didn't drive a mile to less gusty places.



aero you may want to check you anemometer, I get the seabreeze on the Gulf, so no obstruction, and I only wish 15 knots was common on a Summer seabreeze!


It gets stronger on the upper end of the bay in some directions.

aeroegnr
1478 posts
16 Feb 2022 11:42PM
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Low end tested this morning with 105+ fuse and 650. Zero shim. Mast base at center, 9.0, 8-12kts by my guess.

Was getting going with some pumping but not particularly quick, about 20kts. Very backfooted when underpowered with that setup. I could have used either the mast base back a bit or the +0.5 or more shim.

Also: I have to be careful what foil/mast shim to use with the 105+. It came with one, and I'm glad to have a second, but the one that came with it is thinner than my other, and the fuse/mast connection wobbles. I'll have to figure out how to fatten it up a bit so that it is more secure. I used the original connection shim and it is solid.



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"Starboard Slalom 650 Wing" started by WillyWind